MMXP-TALK Digest - 22 Sep 2006 to 2 Oct 2006 (#2006-35)

[Steve Maser]

>Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 11:23:43 +0930
>From: Mike Wiseman <***@FLINDERS.EDU.AU>
>Subject: Re: Daylight Saving Time effects on 7.5
>
>Have a look at open exchange at http://www.open-xchange.com/EN/
>
>We are running 8.5.3 of Mm and are wholly dissatisfied with =20
>Meetingmaker as a proucut.
>
>regards
>
>Mike Wiseman
>Flinders University
>



I'd be curious if you'd care to elaborate on this statement. We run 8.5.3 and of all the "services" we support, I spend less time on Meeting Maker support than practically anything else. (Not that MM is above reproach -- I mean, come *on* -- where's the Intel Mac client installer by now?)

I'm wondering what you see that I'm missing...

- Steve
--
Steve Maser (***@umich.edu) | Thinking is man's only basic virtue,
Desktop Support Manager | from which all the others proceed.
Dept. of Mechanical Engineering | -- Ayn Rand


* MMXP-TALK Web Page: http://WWW.LISTSERV.Emory.Edu/Archives/MMXP-TALK.HTML

[Raoul Armfield]

Steve Maser wrote:
>> Have a look at open exchange at http://www.open-xchange.com/EN/
>>
>> We are running 8.5.3 of Mm and are wholly dissatisfied with =20
>> Meetingmaker as a proucut.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Mike Wiseman
>> Flinders University
>>
>
>
>
> I'd be curious if you'd care to elaborate on this statement. We run 8.5.3 and of all the "services" we support, I spend less time on Meeting Maker support than practically anything else. (Not that MM is above reproach -- I mean, come *on* -- where's the Intel Mac client installer by now?)
>
> I'm wondering what you see that I'm missing...

I agree, We are on mm 7.3 and are going to upgrade to 8.5.3 We have
been running MM on a linux server for nearly 5 years and it has been
"set it and forget it" We have had only 3 incidents and all of those
have been caused by user error in some form.



--
Raoul Armfield
rarmfield at amnh dot org


* MMXP-TALK Web Page: http://WWW.LISTSERV.Emory.Edu/Archives/MMXP-TALK.HTML

[Bob Paver]

We haven't been running MM very long (1-2 years) and never ran
version 7 at any level. Therefore, we did not suffer the conversion
problems that sound pretty bad. We had many problems with the initial
release of 8.5 and got very poor support from MM, aka PeopleCube (who
thought up that name?). The support was so bad that I had a friend
who lives close to the MM offices go there in person and find out if
the company was still operating. This was after sending a certified
letter to the President asking for a response.

We were finally listened to and got a beta release that fixed a
serious memory leak problem that affected users with multiple proxies.

All in all, I'm not impressed with MM or the product. For as long as
they have been in the scheduling/calendaring business, I expected
much more. I've got my fingers crossed for Chandler, hoping it makes
it to prime time soon.

Bob
--
Bob Paver
Assoc. VP, Information Technology Services
Southwestern University
Georgetown, TX 78626
http://www.southwestern.edu/

Need help? Call the HelpDesk at 819-7333.


On Oct 3, 2006, at 8:21 AM, Raoul Armfield wrote:

> Steve Maser wrote:
>>> Have a look at open exchange at http://www.open-xchange.com/EN/
>>>
>>> We are running 8.5.3 of Mm and are wholly dissatisfied with =20
>>> Meetingmaker as a proucut.
>>>
>>> regards
>>>
>>> Mike Wiseman
>>> Flinders University
>>>
>> I'd be curious if you'd care to elaborate on this statement. We
>> run 8.5.3 and of all the "services" we support, I spend less time
>> on Meeting Maker support than practically anything else. (Not
>> that MM is above reproach -- I mean, come *on* -- where's the
>> Intel Mac client installer by now?)
>> I'm wondering what you see that I'm missing...
>
> I agree, We are on mm 7.3 and are going to upgrade to 8.5.3 We
> have been running MM on a linux server for nearly 5 years and it
> has been "set it and forget it" We have had only 3 incidents and
> all of those have been caused by user error in some form.
>
>
>
> --
> Raoul Armfield
> rarmfield at amnh dot org
>
>
> * MMXP-TALK Web Page: http://WWW.LISTSERV.Emory.Edu/Archives/MMXP-
> TALK.HTML
>


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[Mike Mize]

> -----Original Message-----
> [mailto:MMXP-***@LISTSERV.EMORY.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Paver
> Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 8:28 AM
>
> We were finally listened to and got a beta release that fixed
> a serious memory leak problem that affected users with
> multiple proxies.
>

We were given the beta and I was told it was to fix a variety of
printing issues. Needless to say we've found it resolved more that just the
printing problems. This however is the first I've heard of a memory leak
issue.

Mike Mize
CSUFresno


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[Erik Froese]

Has anyone tried the openXchange server?
Any idea how hard it would be to move a large MM database into it?
Erik

On 10/3/06, Mike Mize <***@cvip.net> wrote:
> > -----Original Message-----
> > [mailto:MMXP-***@LISTSERV.EMORY.EDU] On Behalf Of Bob Paver
> > Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 8:28 AM
> >
> > We were finally listened to and got a beta release that fixed
> > a serious memory leak problem that affected users with
> > multiple proxies.
> >
>
> We were given the beta and I was told it was to fix a variety of
> printing issues. Needless to say we've found it resolved more that just the
> printing problems. This however is the first I've heard of a memory leak
> issue.
>
> Mike Mize
> CSUFresno
>
>
> * MMXP-TALK Web Page: http://WWW.LISTSERV.Emory.Edu/Archives/MMXP-TALK.HTML
>


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[Kyle Johnson]

On 10/3/06 at 9:21 AM, Raoul Armfield wrote:
> I agree, We are on mm 7.3 and are going to upgrade to 8.5.3 We have been
> running MM on a linux server for nearly 5 years and it has been "set it and
> forget it" We have had only 3 incidents and all of those have been caused by
> user error in some form.

On 8.x with Linux (or OSX) there is a reproducable but as of yet
unacknowledged bug in the server that will cause it to become
unresponsive at random intervals. The process will continue to run, it
just won't talk to any of the clients. So the 8.x upgrade changes it
from "set it and forget it" to "set it, pray it stays up, find a way to
monitor it, and manually restart it multiple times a day."

For those still on 7.x, try as hard as you can to stay there. 8.x added
nothing of worth, made the GUI harder to use, and decreased stability.
Other than that it's a perfectly fine upgrade. '-)

/kyle
---
Kyle Johnson : Director, Information Technology Services
Duke University Student Affairs
***@duke.edu : http://www.studentaffairs.duke.edu
jabber- ***@jabber.duke.edu : aim- dukekej
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
In dog years, I'm dead.


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[Anderson, Kelly]

Ah, but the random unresponsive server problem is in version 7.5 also!
We've had that problem on our MM on Linux, but have been unable to
reproduce it. Can you send me some details on how to reproduce it? I'm
keenly interested in knowing what causes it. I never got a response
from MM about the problem because we were unable to reproduce it. I'm
afraid it became just "one of those *things* that happens at UofM" in
their support database.


--Kelly

-----Original Message-----
From: Meeting Maker Discussion List
[mailto:MMXP-***@LISTSERV.EMORY.EDU] On Behalf Of Kyle Johnson
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 11:35 AM
To: MMXP-***@LISTSERV.EMORY.EDU
Subject: Re: [MMXP-TALK] MMXP-TALK Digest - 22 Sep 2006 to 2 Oct 2006
(#2006-35)

On 10/3/06 at 9:21 AM, Raoul Armfield wrote:
> I agree, We are on mm 7.3 and are going to upgrade to 8.5.3 We have
> been running MM on a linux server for nearly 5 years and it has been
> "set it and forget it" We have had only 3 incidents and all of those
> have been caused by user error in some form.

On 8.x with Linux (or OSX) there is a reproducable but as of yet
unacknowledged bug in the server that will cause it to become
unresponsive at random intervals. The process will continue to run, it
just won't talk to any of the clients. So the 8.x upgrade changes it
from "set it and forget it" to "set it, pray it stays up, find a way to
monitor it, and manually restart it multiple times a day."

For those still on 7.x, try as hard as you can to stay there. 8.x added
nothing of worth, made the GUI harder to use, and decreased stability.
Other than that it's a perfectly fine upgrade. '-)

/kyle
---
Kyle Johnson : Director, Information Technology Services Duke University
Student Affairs ***@duke.edu :
http://www.studentaffairs.duke.edu
jabber- ***@jabber.duke.edu : aim- dukekej
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
In dog years, I'm dead.


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* MMXP-TALK Web Page: http://WWW.LISTSERV.Emory.Edu/Archives/MMXP-TALK.HTML

[Raoul Armfield]

Kyle Johnson wrote:
> On 8.x with Linux (or OSX) there is a reproducable but as of yet
> unacknowledged bug in the server that will cause it to become
> unresponsive at random intervals. The process will continue to run, it
> just won't talk to any of the clients. So the 8.x upgrade changes it
> from "set it and forget it" to "set it, pray it stays up, find a way to
> monitor it, and manually restart it multiple times a day."
>
> For those still on 7.x, try as hard as you can to stay there. 8.x added
> nothing of worth, made the GUI harder to use, and decreased stability.
> Other than that it's a perfectly fine upgrade. '-)

Thanks for the heads up. When you say reproducable bug does this mean
that there are certain conditions that definitely cause this to happen
or is it something that will definitely happen but the circumstances vary?

Raoul

--
Raoul Armfield
rarmfield at amnh dot org


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[Feri Zsuppa'n]

On Tue, 3 Oct 2006, Raoul Armfield wrote:

> Kyle Johnson wrote:
>> On 8.x with Linux (or OSX) there is a reproducable but as of yet
>> unacknowledged bug in the server that will cause it to become
>> unresponsive at random intervals. The process will continue to run, it
>> just won't talk to any of the clients. So the 8.x upgrade changes it
>> from "set it and forget it" to "set it, pray it stays up, find a way to
>> monitor it, and manually restart it multiple times a day."
>>
>> For those still on 7.x, try as hard as you can to stay there. 8.x added
>> nothing of worth, made the GUI harder to use, and decreased stability.
>> Other than that it's a perfectly fine upgrade. '-)
>
> Thanks for the heads up. When you say reproducable bug does this mean
> that there are certain conditions that definitely cause this to happen
> or is it something that will definitely happen but the circumstances vary?

Unfortunately, we too have noticed this bug in 8.x running on RHEL3 :( The
symptom is that by the sudden large number of connections change to state
CLOSE_WAIT and the HelpDesk phone starts ringing.... This usually happens
at random times during the day but somewhat more frequently early in the
morning when users come in and hit their calendars. We have been unable to
determine the cause so far. Restarting the server clears the hung
connections.

The workaround for us is a script which runs continuously and restarts the
server when this problem happens. There will still be a short time delay
until the clients recover, but you cannot avoid that.

IMHO, this kind(or any kind) of server instability should be first on the
list to fix.

--Feri


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[Kyle Johnson]

On 10/3/06 at 12:28 PM, Feri Zsuppa'n wrote:
> Unfortunately, we too have noticed this bug in 8.x running on RHEL3 :( The
> symptom is that by the sudden large number of connections change to state
> CLOSE_WAIT and the HelpDesk phone starts ringing....

This is basically the same thing we see, but Feri has a much more
elegant way of dealing with it. '-) We're both here at Duke (different
MM installations though, long story), and even with the two of us
bugging MM about the same problem on two different platforms seems to
not get much of a response.

/kyle
---
Kyle Johnson : Director, Information Technology Services
Duke University Student Affairs
***@duke.edu : http://www.studentaffairs.duke.edu
jabber- ***@jabber.duke.edu : aim- dukekej
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Snakes on a plane.


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[Rich Battin]

On Oct 3, 2006, at 11:30 AM, Kyle Johnson wrote:

> On 10/3/06 at 12:28 PM, Feri Zsuppa'n wrote:
>> Unfortunately, we too have noticed this bug in 8.x running on
>> RHEL3 :( The
>> symptom is that by the sudden large number of connections change
>> to state
>> CLOSE_WAIT and the HelpDesk phone starts ringing....

We have seen the OS X server stop responding too. It pings and
appears normal otherwise but the Meeting Maker process is hung.
Rebooting fixes it and the phone ringing off the hook is usually the
first indication. Even the InterMapper Meeting Maker probe status
stays green <http://www.intermapper.com/docs/WebHelp/06-
probe_reference/server-proprietary.htm>.

Another calendar/email collaboration tool we are looking into is
Zimbra <http://www.zimbra.com/>.

Rich

***Mail Scanned by Barracuda***


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[Raoul Armfield]

Anderson, Kelly wrote:
> Ah, but the random unresponsive server problem is in version 7.5 also!
> We've had that problem on our MM on Linux, but have been unable to
> reproduce it. Can you send me some details on how to reproduce it? I'm
> keenly interested in knowing what causes it. I never got a response
> from MM about the problem because we were unable to reproduce it. I'm
> afraid it became just "one of those *things* that happens at UofM" in
> their support database.

How are you stopping and starting the mmserver service? We recently
found a similar problem. We registered (pardon the MS lingo) it as a
service and started it that way. For a long time it worked fine
recently however we had to rebuild the MM server and after that it would
become unresponsive at times. Now what we do is start ./S99mmserver as
a cron job and it has been up for nearly a month no issues.

We are using version 7.3 so this may have started to be an issue in
later versions.


--
Raoul Armfield
rarmfield at amnh dot org


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[Dirk Tepe]

We've been using Meeting Maker since version 3.1. From the start
through version 7.5, I loved it. I could count the amount of server
support hours per year on one hand. Clients were mostly satisfied,
though the feature set was not exactly compelling given today's
needs. We would have occasional problems during an upgrade, but I
was very please overall and encouraged our organization to upgrade to
8.5 last spring.

I regret that.

We spent a lot of time testing, but we focused on the wrong things.
We tested our upgrade process and splitting our user base back into a
multi-server/hub environment. We tested the upgrade to Intellisync
and the web client. We tested the Outlook Connector. All of that
testing went fine. We found some issues upgrading, but worked
through them. We expected some issues upgrading all our mobile
devices, but we tried to prepare our support staff accordingly.

After the upgrade, we found that the "pretty" new interface was
lacking some features that people had come to rely on. We failed to
catch these issues because our attention was elsewhere during
testing. Meeting Maker lost a lot of respect in my eyes when I saw
what had been removed or changed for no apparent reason.

Then we started having server issues. And then problems with clients
and mobile devices and the MMCO and web client. The list goes on.

Over the last couple of years, there has been a lot of push for an
"integrated" solution (email and calendaring) here, on at least the
client end. I had argued at every opportunity that Meeting Maker
represented a significant win in terms of support costs and
functionality and a move to an integrated solution would cause many
problems.

I'm done fighting to keep Meeting Maker. This upgrade has made
myself and the project team look like idiots. I will not ask my
organization to continue to fund this product. While I may not be
happy with whatever new calendar system we get, it's good odds that I
won't be any more unhappy than I am now.

I know a lot people at Meeting Maker tech support. They've always
been helpful and knowledgeable and I hold no grudge with them.
However, the people making design and development decisions have,
IMHO, killed what was a fine product. There was no feature growth in
the direction the industry was moving (and members of this list were
asking for). Too many features are bolted on as afterthoughts and do
little but decrease server stability.

It's sad, but I have no reason to recommend Meeting Maker 8.5 to anyone.

-dirk

On Oct 3, 2006, at 8:37 AM, Steve Maser wrote:

>> Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 11:23:43 +0930
>> From: Mike Wiseman <***@FLINDERS.EDU.AU>
>> Subject: Re: Daylight Saving Time effects on 7.5
>>
>> Have a look at open exchange at http://www.open-xchange.com/EN/
>>
>> We are running 8.5.3 of Mm and are wholly dissatisfied with =20
>> Meetingmaker as a proucut.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Mike Wiseman
>> Flinders University
>>
>
>
>
> I'd be curious if you'd care to elaborate on this statement. We
> run 8.5.3 and of all the "services" we support, I spend less time
> on Meeting Maker support than practically anything else. (Not that
> MM is above reproach -- I mean, come *on* -- where's the Intel Mac
> client installer by now?)
>
> I'm wondering what you see that I'm missing...
>
> - Steve
> --
> Steve Maser (***@umich.edu) | Thinking is man's only basic
> virtue,
> Desktop Support Manager | from which all the others proceed.
> Dept. of Mechanical Engineering | -- Ayn
> Rand
>
>
> * MMXP-TALK Web Page: http://WWW.LISTSERV.Emory.Edu/Archives/MMXP-
> TALK.HTML


--
Dirk S Tepe ***@muohio.edu
Senior Systems Analyst
Miami University
IT Services
312 Hoyt Hall Voice: [phone]
Oxford, OH 45056 FAX: [phone]




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[Mike Wiseman]

Hi Steve,

I originally posted the following to the list in July, but it is
still relevant...

regards

Mike
---------------------------------------
Just in case anyone has MeetingMaker version 7.5 running and is
contemplating moving to version 8.5, a word of caution.

We have recently downgraded from 7.5 to 8.5, much to our chagrin. The
features and interface may look better but the performance and bug
count is the poorest I have seen for some time. We are actively
considering moving completely to another product based on our current
experience of version 8.5 and the tardy fix rate from PeopleCube.

By far the major issue for us has been *extremely* slow response when
refreshing diaries with many entries. MM7.5 handled these diaries
easily with no appreciable refresh delay. What is disturbing is that
the problem is still there even when working off-line with local data
for these diaries - the cpu usage on the local desktop goes to 80+%
while it apparently sorts through the data for presentation.

Here are some of the issues we have:

-----------------------------------------------
Version numbers refer to client version.

• Slowness when using diaries or proxies with large number of entries:
Diaries with many entries each day can take up to 20 seconds to load.
Status in PeopleCube Incidents/Cases: Open - researching
Comment: So far we have received explanations from the Dev team, and
requests to do various measurements, but no fix

• Slowness and memory leak under Citrix;
Version 8.5.1 has a memory leak under Citrix which ground the Citrix
servers to a halt over a period of a few hours. (See next bug for
reason for using 8.5.1)
Status in PeopleCube Incidents/Cases: Closed – Feature request (!!!)
Comment: Our staff have found a way to use version 8.5.3, which
seems to have resolved this.

• Under Citrix, have to use a prior version, as current one writes to
wrong directory
Version 8.5.3 writes to the directory containing the application.
This meant that every user on Citrix saw the diary of the first
person to login.
Status in PeopleCube Incidents/Cases: Closed – Bug report
Comment: PeopleCube Support said to use version 8.5.1 as that version
does not have this behaviour. Our staff discovered that copying the
application to every user’s directory worked around this bug.

• Contact lists & proposals settings not saved (contact list order
reverts to creation order; proposals revert to all open)
Status in PeopleCube Incidents/Cases: Closed
Comment: PeopleCube Support changed the Status of this Incident from
Assigned to Closed without contacting us at all, so this is still
unresolved, and they appear to have no interest in pursuing it.

• View options not stored locally – stored attached to the diary on
the server. Everyone viewing a proxy has to use the same view – if
one changes, it automatically changes all others.
Status in PeopleCube Incidents/Cases: Bug

• Web client uses northern hemisphere daylight saving dates for
southern hemisphere
Status in PeopleCube Incidents/Cases: Bug

• Group view flashes; Address list returns you to the first item when
you select any item from the list
Status in PeopleCube Incidents/Cases: Bug
Comment: Fixed in version 8.5.3b, but only if all users are using
that version
Fixed in version 8.6

• Preferences spontaneoulsy reverting to default
Status in PeopleCube Incidents/Cases: Closed
Comment: happens when you change your preferences through the web
client the first time you login.

• Synchronising with non-Palm mobile devices (Intellisync)
Status in PeopleCube Incidents/Cases: Closed, no response from client.
Comment: I have opened at least 2 incidents about this. Support keep
closing them as it takes so long for my testers to provide data. The
second time, I had referred them to the previous incident for the
data they requested, but they seemd to regard this as a lack of
response.
Still not been able to connect to the server, even though the check
via a browser shows it is running OK

• Printing: using both version 8.5.3b164 on desktops and version
8.5.1 on Citrix, when printing a month, prints 999 pages; when
printing a week prints Tuesday to Friday, or Sunday to Thursady,
depending on exact client version.
Comment: this was reported to us by PeopleCube support as being
fixed in version 8.5.3b171, which they sent us in response to the
report about group view flashing. This version resolved the printing
issue as well.



Mike Wiseman
Flinders University

-----------------------------------------
On 03/10/2006, at 10:07 PM, Steve Maser wrote:

>> Date: Tue, 3 Oct 2006 11:23:43 +0930
>> From: Mike Wiseman <***@FLINDERS.EDU.AU>
>> Subject: Re: Daylight Saving Time effects on 7.5
>>
>> Have a look at open exchange at http://www.open-xchange.com/EN/
>>
>> We are running 8.5.3 of Mm and are wholly dissatisfied with =20
>> Meetingmaker as a proucut.
>>
>> regards
>>
>> Mike Wiseman
>> Flinders University
>>
>
>
>
> I'd be curious if you'd care to elaborate on this statement. We
> run 8.5.3 and of all the "services" we support, I spend less time
> on Meeting Maker support than practically anything else. (Not that
> MM is above reproach -- I mean, come *on* -- where's the Intel Mac
> client installer by now?)
>
> I'm wondering what you see that I'm missing...
>
> - Steve
> --
> Steve Maser (***@umich.edu) | Thinking is man's only basic
> virtue,
> Desktop Support Manager | from which all the others proceed.
> Dept. of Mechanical Engineering | -- Ayn
> Rand
>
>
> * MMXP-TALK Web Page: http://WWW.LISTSERV.Emory.Edu/Archives/MMXP-
> TALK.HTML


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